Take a Ride on the Cluetrain
An interview with Chistopher Locke and David
Weinberger, two of the four Cluetrain Manifesto
developers (i.e., cool dudes).
Conducted
via email by John S. Rhodes (16-June-99)
What follows is an interview with two of the
four developers of the Cluetrain Manifesto.
For each question, I have answers from both Christopher
Locke and David Weinberger.
Before you read this interview, I highly
suggest that you take some time to read over the
Cluetrain Manifesto (but please be sure to head on back for this interview). As you
will see, the Manifesto is a very creative and very useful piece of work. Let's get on
with it.
What is the
Cluetrain Manifesto? What is its real purpose?
Weinberger:
The manifesto is exactly that: a call to arms
intended to hearten those ready to march. But it's also intended to raise issues with
those who are well into the dark in understanding what's going on. We created the web site
because some ideas we'd been kicking around gelled and we realized that what we were
talking about together was a whole lot bigger than what we'd been talking about singly.
The aim of the site is simply to start a
conversation about a related set of threads. You could also say the point was to inject a
meme (or complex set of memes) into the Net stream, but that'd be awfully cliched, don't
you think?
The manifesto says that the Net is enabling
new conversations in the market and inside of organizations. These conversations are
direct, honest, and frequently funny. As a result, markets and employees are getting
smarter faster than businesses themselves. The old ways of talking down to markets and
employees, the old ways of putting a happy face on every communication, the old ways of
trying to keep tight control on everything that is said and everything that happens ...
these old ways increasingly seem tired, pointless and demeaning.
Locke:
The manifesto is what it says. it's also the
product of thinking about these matters for many years and talking to literally thousands
of people in both the Internet marketplace and working within business organizations --
usually both, as you might guess. we all gotta make a living somehow. it's *real* purpose,
hmmm.... It's a digital roach motel.
Why has the Manifesto been so wildly successful?
Weinberger:
Judging from the mail we've been getting,
it's because it states the obvious (although it only becomes obvious once you state it).
People are tired of being lied to and treated like morons or enemies when they're in fact
employees and consumers. The Web's giving us an opportunity to speak for ourselves, to
talk directly with others with similar interests (whether in the market or within the
business) and we're telling one another the truth. We're speaking in our own voices. We're
discovering that the happy-talk from corporations is completely useless and demeaning. We
can do a lot better than that.
Once you realize that the web gives you a way
to talk truthfully with other people, businesses that treat the web as another form of
brochure or as broadcast medium seem completely clueless. We don't want to buy from these
companies and we sure don't want to work for them. The manifesto apparently tapped into
the amazement -- and anger -- at just how clueless companies can be.
Also, the manifesto succeeded because it's
darn funny.
Locke:
It surprised us, really, though of course we
were gratified. It seems people are ready to hear this sort of thing. They're tired of
companies treating them like dirt whether as customers or employees. We don't think this
is true of all companies, of course, but it struck a nerve, so the shoe must fit in a lot
of cases. Also, I think there are many people in companies who were inspired to use the
manifesto as ammunition to help change their companies from the inside. That's great.
That's how it happens.
Do you think the Manifesto has had a real impact on
companies? How so? Examples?
Weinberger:
Absolutely. On the one hand, it has given
heart to many people working for clueless companies. We've gotten great email from some of
them. But that's not what you mean. You want to know about companies that have changed
policies top down because of the manifesto, right?
Chris knows about some companies that are
moving in that direction, inspired by the manifesto (or at least being reinforced by it),
but I don't think we're allowed to talk about 'em. Chris, do you feel comfortable talking
about this in general, with no names attached??
Locke:
Yes, I know of at least a couple examples of
companies using cluetrain to re-think and reorganize various aspects of their operations.
You'd know the names, but I'm not at liberty to say. In one case, the company realized its
people had much greater knowledge of customer interests than did management, because they
shared those interests -- it's why they're working there. The company has decided to put
its employees in touch with its market. It's a good fit, and a perfect example of what we
were suggesting.
How does the Cluetrain Manifesto relate to Internet
usability?
Weinberger:
It's right in line with, in my view.
Usability fights the top-down "we know best" tendency of most corporate
cultures.
Locke:
When people are given the chance to do things
right, I think that's their first choice. Rather than turn in slipshod work, I think
they'd rather pay attention to the details. [The] Cluetrain was not addressing any
specific issue such as usability, per se, but I think when organizations understand and
follow the kind of principles we articulated, the effects will be felt in many areas of
the company's interaction with its market.
Do you have a book in the works? If yes, tell us a
little about it.
Weinberger:
"The Cluetrain Manifesto" is due
out this Winter from Perseus. All four of us are writing it. It will elaborate on the
themes of the site, and it will be, we hope, unlike any business book you can name.
Locke:
Yes. Perseus
Press. It's a spinoff of Addison-Wesley. Good folks. They're very excited about it. It
will lead their catalog for the year 2000. Publication is planned for January. It will be
titled, unsurprisingly, The Cluetrain Manifesto, and will underpin and extend the ideas in
the 95 Theses. Expect surprises.
What's next? How are you going to capitalize on
your celebrity status?
Weinberger:
I personally look forward to selling out and
retiring early.
Locke:
I bought a laptop computer and I'm finally
going to be able to afford the lobotomy.
Final thoughts? Amazing ideas? Shameless plugs?
Weinberger:
Shameless Plugs 'R Us. Could you please run
our individual URLs? All are free, unsponsored, independent and sans advertising? Here's
mine: JOHO (Journal of the Hyperlinked Organization): http://www.hyperorg.com
Thanks for the chance to mouth off!
Locke:
Entropy
Gradient Reversals is happy to have new subscribers. It's always fun to see how long
they can take it.
Thanks, John
David and Chris, thanks for giving us a
clue.
Now,
what should you do?
- Feel free to create a link to this
interview, but please do not copy or redistribute it in any form without my
permission.
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